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Talk:Ranger
Favored enemies & epic levels not sure, but I don't think the Ranger's Favored enemy progression extends into 20+ levels seperate from the normal Epic bonus feats.--Defunc7 00:19, 11 Sep 2005 (PDT) *I never had a Ranger with 30 levels, but i have had builds with over 25 Ranger levels. I do remember there was a bonus feat at level 25. -- Pstarky 08:30, 6 Oct 2005 (PDT) :*yea, I checked a bit back, but only replied that it was true in the Epic Bonus feat page. not here. --Defunc7 09:35, 6 Oct 2005 (PDT) I would just remove the reference to favored enemies from the Special Abilities&Feats list and replace it with bonus feat (after all that's exactly what the favored enemy is: a selectable bonus feat). Also I would remove the epic part (level 25,30,35,40) and change the epic bonus feat progression to 23,25,26,29,30,32,35,35,38,40. What do you think?--Kamiryn 05:47, 11 January 2006 (PST) *I wouldn't just call it "epic bonus feats" because it effectively has 2 (feat/5 & feat/3) seperate progressions, where all the other classes only have 1. Currently it's pretty ambiguous since it says "Bonus Feats: Favored Enemy, Greater Spell Focus" at the start, with "FE (or bonus feat)" on the pre-epic, I don't think u can take GSF pre-epic, and the note section confuses it with epic pre-epic bonus stuff. You can only take FE pre-epic pre-epic character. --Defunc7 06:44, 11 January 2006 (PST) :*You can take Greater Spell Focus pre-epic.--Kamiryn 06:54, 11 January 2006 (PST) The problem I have is that at there are a few classes with pre-epic bonus feats (CoT, fighter, rogue, ranger, harper scout, wizard) but there's no consistency at all: fighters have a link to the fighter bonus feat page, for CoTs it says the fighter list is used (the notes tell a few difference and there's a strange note about the epic(!) Great Smiting not being a fighter bonus feat), rogues have their bonus feat list within the special abilities&feats, for wizards it says something about metamagic and spell feats, the harper scout class lists the feats at every level, ranger did say nothing about bonus feats (well, the only other beside FE is the Greater Spell Focus feat so it's forgivable). But why not give every class a (pre-epic) bonus feat list and in the Special Abilities&Feats section write down at which level a bonus feat is gained.--Kamiryn 07:33, 11 January 2006 (PST) *The only reason this hasn't been done is simply that no one has done it yet. *Hint* *Hint!* ^_~ --Countess Terra 08:13, 11 January 2006 (PST) :*Well, after all these edits in the last hours I was afraid of becoming a member of the spam list page. So hesitated to do any larger changes and modifications without at least a short discussion.--Kamiryn 08:23, 11 January 2006 (PST) ::*Never hurts to ask. I do agree it should be done. --Countess Terra 08:33, 11 January 2006 (PST) Spell progression the spells progression dosent seem accurate, im level 9 and have 2/1/0/0 -- 28 March 2007 *You probably ain't counting the bonus spells from WIS 12+ Kail Pendragon 05:02, 2 April 2007 (PDT) Archery I can see how Cat's Grace can help archery a bit, but can anyone explain to me how skill points and favored enemies specifically aid archery? --The Krit 21:46, 5 September 2007 (UTC) *Archers seem to me to be low on damage per shot and often rely upon dexterity for AC, so a little extra damage and a bonus to spot and listen could be quite useful. Also summoned creatures can be some use in distracting opponents. Although I agree that it does seem ridiculous call them perfect... RAMss 06:56, 8 September 2008 (UTC) "Despite popular perception and BioWare's prestige class tip, the ranger has but one class feature that enhances archery, namely the ability to self-buff with cat's grace and thereby increasing the ranger's ranged attack bonus." I don't agree. The "favored enemy" works with ranged weapons as bows too. With a pure ranger, you'll get the extra ranged damage no other class would get as: *1-4: 1 (on one racial group) *5-9: 2 (on two racial groups) *10-14: 3 (on three racial groups) *15-19: 4 (on four racial groups) *20: 5 (on five racial groups) *(Take bane of enemies at 21, the damage is counted as 2-12) *21-24: 7-17 (on five racial groups) *23: (one extra racial group due to bonus feat) *25: (one extra racial group as favored enemy) *26: (one extra racial group due to bonus feat) *25-29: 8-19 (on eight racial groups) *29: (one extra racial group due to bonus feat) *30: (one extra racial group as favored enemy) *30-34: 9-20 (on ten/eleven racial groups) *32: (one extra racial group due to bonus feat) *35 (one extra racial group due to bonus feat, one extra racial group as favored enemy) *35-39: 10-21 (on thirteen/fourteen racial groups due to bonus feat) *38: (one extra racial group due to bonus feat) *40: (one extra racial group as favored enemy) *40: 11-22 (on fifteen racial groups) There are 18 racial groups in all. I admit though that it's a bit stupid to take only extra enemies as epic feats, but take at least those that are immune to sneak attacks and/or crits since the ranger extra damage works on those too. If you multiclass the ranger you'll get other kinds of ranged damage you add to your bow: Arcane archers make the bow magic, most useful in low magical worlds. With a cleric or paladin, you'll get the spell "divine favour" and the feat "divine might", both works with ranged weapons. With a bard, the bardsong improves ranged weapons too. With a rogue, you'll get the sneak attacks that also works with ranged weapons. To max out ranged damage, use a heavy crossbow instead of a bow and the "rapid reload" feat. 10:10, March 13, 2010 (UTC) *Your argument falls flat as soon as you get to the word "too". Favored enemy bonuses do work with ranged weapons, but they are not exclusive to ranged weapons. A ranger is no better suited to archery than melee combat. (And there are 24 favored enemy races available, not 18.) I suppose the wording could be a bit better, although personally I wouldn't even bothering mentioning cat's grace. --The Krit 02:08, March 14, 2010 (UTC) :* Since you can't take: animal companions, familiars, polymorphs or summons as favored enemies, it's 18 different racial groups according to the wiki. Or 17 to be correct since a ranger can't take Oozes as favored enemy either. The humanoid races are lacking from the wiki though so I assume it's 24 in the game. ::"Too" is redundant, a ranger do more damage to their favored enemies with a bow than any other fighter class, even though an arcane archer hit the opponent far more often and sneak attacks from a high level rogue can do more damage in certain circumstances. If you want to make a fighter specialized with a bow, ranger is the class to go. -- 05:48, March 15, 2010 (UTC) ::* Animal Companions, etc. do not form their own racial groups rather each of them are classified by race. The 24 racial types a ranger can select from (oozes are not included in the 24) can be found in cls_feat_rang.2da (lines 15-38). Even if you take 15 of these you only have 5/8 of the selectable racial types (which is 3/5 of all the racial types including ooze). By the way the wiki does list all 25 races in Category:races. WhiZard 06:06, March 15, 2010 (UTC) ::* A ranger gets the same damage bonus whether using a bow or a melee weapon. Therefore, a ranger is not geared towards being an archer; both options are equally supported. Comparisons to other classes are irrelevant, unless you can show that the other classes are weaker in archery than in melee. Weapon masters make poor archers. Arcane archers make good archers. Rangers lie with the majority of the classes in the group that are equally suited to archery and melee. --The Krit 15:06, March 15, 2010 (UTC) ::* Something I missed before: "it's 18 different racial groups '''according to the wiki.'"'' Where in the wiki is this incorrect information? Once it is located, it can be fixed. --The Krit 17:55, March 29, 2010 (UTC) :::* I think I found it. Favored enemy has been linking to category:creatures which only lists the races not available to PCs, I am changing the link to the race category as that seems more straightforward. WhiZard 17:34, April 5, 2010 (UTC) ::::* Oh, that. Yeah, that category is still under development. The category link is still more appropriate, though, since it is supposed to give a listing of creatures within each race. I'll go add some placeholder subcategories to fill out the count. --The Krit 18:02, April 21, 2010 (UTC) Greater spell focus Why doesn't greater spell focus show on the bonus epic feats? You can select it both on the ranger epic bonus levels and on the ranger favored enemy levels (both regular and epic). WhiZard 03:14, 11 October 2008 (UTC) :Because greater spell focus is not an epic feat. ;) Look at the list of "Bonus feats" a lot closer to the top of the article. --The Krit 19:47, 24 October 2008 (UTC) ::I think I might remember what I was trying to get at half a year ago with that comment. The thing is favored enemy is listed both in bonus and in epic bonus, as well as being a title for the bonus feats on class level 1 and levels that are a multiple of 5. While it seems quite obvious from the amount of listings of favored enemy that it can be taken on both epic level progressions, the lack of instruction on the specifically three level progression for greater spell focus seems quite confusing. My suggestion would be to drop "nth favored enemy" in the leveling guide completely and replace it with "bonus feat" (The leveling guide already has a column for the favored enemy bonus, so describing the corresponding bonus feat as "nth favored enemy" is already redundant). Then put the link to the favored enemy page under the favored enemy that is listed in "bonus feats: favored enemy, greater spell focus" at the top. Then get rid of favored enemy listed in the epic bonus feats and merge the two epic feat progressions into one description. This would keep the formatting the same as with all the other classes and make it obvious that greater spell focus does not just apply to the favored enemy line that is currently set up. I don't want to carry out such a heavy edit if there isn't some consensus, though. WhiZard 01:33, 11 May 2009 (UTC) ::: For consistency, "favored enemy" did need to be removed from the epic feat list. As for the rest, it sounds good, so it might be worth seeing in action. Be sure to check out the discussion at the top of this talk page, too. --The Krit 18:47, 12 May 2009 (UTC) ::::Changed "nth favored enemy" in leveling guide to "bonus feat," combined both epic level bonus feat progressions, and simplified description for "epic favored enemy." WhiZard 19:30, 12 May 2009 (UTC) Bonus favored enemies Why does the article not say anywhere that Favored Enemies can be taken as one of the bonus feats, allowing up to 15 Favored Enemies for dedicated level 40 Rangers? I'm figuring the easiest way would be to just add Favored Enemies to the bonus feat list for simplicity... or even just insert a "non-epic bonus feat" list or just a note saything that the Greater Spell Focus and Favored Enemies feats can be taken at those bonus feat levels same as the normal epic ranger feats... shrug I don't have a login so I avoid editing the pages themselves, just the talk pages. -- 08:38, 8 January 2012 :It lists favored enemy under bonus feats at the top of the article. Epic bonus feats are additional bonus feats available at epic levels. WhiZard 19:34, January 8, 2012 (UTC) Summons, Companions, Familiars, and Shapeshifting I'm assuming at this point that Favored Enemy bonuses apply fully against summons, animal companions, and familiars of the appropriate racial type, am I correct? What about shapeshifted players? If a player shapeshifts into something that just happens to be your favored enemy, do you get the bonus damage against them? I'm thinking yes but I want to confirm. By this I mean that if you have Favored Enemy: Elementals and a character (maybe a druid or someone with lots of scrolls) summons an Elder Fire Elemental and then Wildshapes into an Earth Elemental, do you get the Favored Enemy bonus against both of them? -- 08:44, 8 January 2012 *FE respects the race you are currently in. It also works on summons and other associates. Every creature has a race that can be adjusted by polymorphs. WhiZard 19:32, January 8, 2012 (UTC) * This article is about the ranger class; discussions about a feat should be in that feat's talk page (talk:favored enemy). On the other hand, the answer to this particular question could be found by first reading the favored enemy article, realizing this is a question about what a race is, then following the link to race, where it is mentioned that polymorphing changes a creature's race. --The Krit 18:26, January 10, 2012 (UTC) Zen Archery "Despite popular perception and BioWare's prestige class tip, the ranger is not intrinsically better suited to archery than melee combat. Other than automatic access to cat's grace..." In my opinion wisdom-based magic indirectly supports archery,because combined with zen archery makes that improving your wisdom buffs your ranged weapons attacks and your magic.So if you decide to use ranged weapons over melee and take this feat you can have more spells.Moreover in this case you can wear heavy armor(you do not need high dexterity if you focus on wisdom and take zen archery) unless you rely on skills that are affected by armor penalty. Szafirmag (talk) 17:57, August 3, 2013 (UTC) *I am not sure where you are going with this. Zen archery has the same potential benefits for archers of any wisdom-based casting class, and there are four of them. It isn't clear that a special note is warranted for rangers. In addition, the note (as of the final August 3, 2013 edit) says, "...this allow you to wear heavy armor(dexterity modifier limitation is not the problem, because in this case you do not have to have high dexterity..." That seems to imply that the maximum dexterity bonus for heavy armor is a limitation for ranged combat, which is incorrect. - MrZork (talk) 21:06, August 4, 2013 (UTC) * Sure, you can get more spells if you focus on wisdom, but is this better than getting more AC by focusing on dexterity? Better than getting more damage in melee by focusing on strength? There is a trade-off here. --The Krit (talk) 03:32, August 8, 2013 (UTC) * I don't get "You can focus on ther attributes like wisdom or constitution". How/Why are you going to focus on constitution when the basic premise of this proposal is that you are going to focus on wisdom? --The Krit (talk) 03:49, August 8, 2013 (UTC) * "Zen archery can be a useful feat to a ranger who prefers archery to melee combat". I do not think that`s good idea to use archery to melee combat if you play on higher difficulty mode,because in this case using ranged weapon gives enemies attacks of opportunity. It`s safer to allow your animal companion and henchman(s) draw enemies` focus and attack them from distance. Szafirmag (talk) 07:58, August 31, 2013 (UTC) :* Okay, I'm confused. First you write that zen archery is a great feat if you prefer archery. Now you state that you think no one should choose archery over melee combat. But then you immediately give a reason why someone should prefer archery to melee? Archery is not a good idea because it is safer to use archery??? That's what you wrote, at least. What exactly are you trying to say? --The Krit (talk) 14:14, August 31, 2013 (UTC) ::* "Zen archery can be a useful feat to a ranger who prefers archery to melee combat" is quote from Ranger article. English is not my native language,so maybe I misunderstood this fragment. "Archery to melee combat" I understood as "using archery in melee combat". If I made a mistake in reading this fragment I would be glad if someone paraphrases it to me.Szafirmag (talk) 19:27, September 1, 2013 (UTC) :::* Well, the words "archery to melee combat" form an incomplete grammatical unit; to get something with meaning, you need to expand that to "prefer archery to melee combat". That means that if given the choice, the subject would pick archery instead of melee combat. If you were to imagine someone already within melee range of the enemy, the choice is no longer there; this would be expressed as "in melee combat". So we see three choices of prepositions: the original "than", which is ungrammatical to the point of technically not meaning anything; the replacement "to", which specifies that its object ("melee combat") is the other choice for the "prefers"; and the just-mentioned "in", which turns its object into a description of where the choice is being made. On the other hand, the comparison of "archery" to "melee combat" is not great, since "archery" can refer to either the distance of combat or the choice of weapon. Probably would be better to change that to "ranged". --The Krit (talk) 23:07, September 1, 2013 (UTC) * As with many cases in toon building there are trade-offs in feat selection. Zen archery is no different. Electing that for a ranger has its own limitations. Contrary to Szafirmag's initial statement, Wisdom cannot be self-buffed as it can by a druid with the 2 Owl's buffs, so there is a higher intrinsic potential related to AB level going the DEX route with ranger. Other than multi-classing with monk class to benefit from the WIS AC, there is no AC benefit going the Zen route (you can't lose what you never had in the first place, i.e. DEX AC). DEX AC will still be dependable against ranged attacks as will the bane of potential AoOs vs. that genre of attacks. I view the chief advantage of a high-WIS ranger limited only to gaining spell slots and raising the associated DCs of the spell repertoire, and secondarily gaining the Will saves instead of the Reflex ones, with Reflex possibly the most commonly-incurred save situation vs. spells & traps. :On the flip side, a ranger gains feats that are most advantageous while not wearing heavy armor, specifically the dual-wield series. Why would one invest into a relatively feat-starved class to begin with if not intending to take full advantage of the pre-assigned feats? For FE's? A poor rationale IMO. That would seem to imply that a ranger utilizing a pre-determined combat scheme (DWing) would be needing weapon finesse to maintain any significant melee attack prowess with a melee weapon (or weapons, in the case of DWing). That means DEX would be the primary ability. The most practical means of avoiding the AoOs for a dedicated archer (ranger or otherwise) is still a weapon swap OR multi-classing with a class that has access to the Darkness spell. Also, don't underestimate the value of blade thirst in low-magic environments when it comes to evaluating relative effectiveness of archery vs. melee for a ranger forced into melee range. :It's just a choice to make, but IMO, as far as a ranger archer goes, there are more class-inherent benefits and potential for an optimized character design going the DEX route than the WIS one.--Iconclast (talk) 14:49, September 1, 2013 (UTC) :* Tidbits: Szafirmag did not say a ranger can self-buff wisdom, only that a ranger could buff wisdom. (And since there was a mention of having more spells, the buffs would have to come from items, as spell-based buffs expire while resting, taking their extra spell slots with them.) Increasing spell DC is a benefit of high wisdom, but keep in mind the list of ranger spells that allow saving throws: entangle, grease, hold animal, and sleep; these can be useful, but are not all that powerful as far as spells go. It would be more precise to say "dual-wield feat" instead of "dual-wield series", as only that one feat is disabled when wearing heavy armor. --The Krit (talk) 16:49, September 1, 2013 (UTC) ::* Well, I was referring to both ambidexterity and 2-wpn fighting as a "series", TK. They used a unique name to impart the armor restriction just for ranger but they still get the benefits of the 2 feats in one. The point is: selecting ranger class automatically allocates multiple feats to DW combat for an already-starved class. Also, my point about self-buffing was that DEX can be boosted higher than a potion with Cat's Empowered version in slot 4. Otherwise, all potions are a 1d4+1 boost so are a wash to compare. :::Comparing intrinsic potential should ignore items anyway. It's just too transitory and environment-dependent to begin throwing around sample items on one server (or in one module) or another. Besides, in high magic worlds who knows what custom items the designers will decide balances best. If needed, just assume caps can be reached on all abilities with items and the intrinsic value of the focused ability will be revealed, and at the same time don't waste time buffing abilities since it won't provide anything extra. :::Though Zen Archery is obviously a viable alternative for those who are dedicating the character to archer-only style... there is an AB trap. Bumping STR won't help archery, though oft times there are mighty props that can be exploited (but the same issue is true for a DEX build... how much STR to set aside). Ranger archers usually rely on FE's for damage anyway, Zen version or not. Splitting bumps between STR & WIS (so that, at least, against moderate enemies range attack will hit something), dilutes the overall attack potential between range & melee. :::Vesting only in DEX kills 2 orcs with one stone, so to speak. The attack level will be equally elevated during character progression for both ranged and melee with weapon finesse. Zen archery within melee range won't lose DEX AC (since you don't have any invested to begin with), but you still will be getting hit with constant AoOs while wading into hostile groups. That's where the trade-off is bad. There seems to be an opinion that summon/companion meat shields will continue to engage mobs while the archer just assumes an artillery stance. In any challenging environment it won't. Default summons (note: not custom summons via special items) may last a round or 2, if that long, with spells like dismissal and banishment taking them out even faster. Sure, if you can depend on party tanks to provide security, then THAT is the one situation where a Zen archer can avoid devastating AoOs. Called leg shots can help an artillery type but not forever. Eventually, whether from an enhanced enemy perception range or getting forced into tight quarters to gain access to another area, your archer will get flanked. :::As for multi-classing with monk, wearing any armor at all will negate the monk progression and movement speed. And with robes will be stuck DWing with kamas, so the bit of AC seems cost-ineffective to me. Evasion is worthwhile, but the rest of the monk 1 feats are benefiting melee combat. It's not that Zen archery is bad strategy, just less bang for the buck vs. a DEX archer/finesser. As a sample, a Str14/Dex18/Con12/Wis14/Int10/Cha8 elven ranger is a decent start-up and probably can be even more conservative on Con most times in a party. As to PvPing the Zen ranger vs. the DEX ranger to illuminate the whole issue...--Iconclast (talk) 00:42, September 3, 2013 (UTC) :::* Fair enough. Just keep in mind that not counting item buffs throws out the "you can have more spells" point from the opening post. Oh, and the reason I would not call dual-wield a "series" is to avoid confusion about improved two-weapon fighting (since that is a feat affecting dual-wielding, but it is not canceled by a ranger wearing heavy armor). --The Krit (talk) 03:15, September 3, 2013 (UTC) *Just to support the Zen Archery route. I have been building a strength based ranged rangers and Zen archery was almost always best choice for that - in such build, there aren't points for dexterity and unless ranger spells are totally useless in the environment, such ranger will have always at least 14base wisdom. For such build its better choice to dump dexterity and go wisdom route, possibly with monk to gain back lost ac (but that isnt that big issue for ranged characters, especially when they have a meat shields-pets). Im not claiming this router is more common than dexterity or if there is need for any note, just trying to reason benefits of Zen archery for ranger class, in case someone wasnt sure about that. 21:14, September 1, 2013 (UTC) :* An 8 dexterity + cat's grace is on average 1.5 AB less than the +2 AB from the 14 wisdom score. Given that the ranger has plenty of spell slots for his level 2 spells and that buffing dexterity would increase the AC, we are talking about zen archery being slightly more effective (and stacking with) weapon focus. This does not seem as great as the effect for paladins (who do not have cat's grace) taking the feat, and many paladins are strength based starting with 14 scores in strength, wisdom, charisma, constitution, and intelligence (leaving dexterity at its minimum). Nevertheless, paladins rarely take zen archery, chiefly because they are so many other better feats to take.WhiZard (talk) 16:48, September 2, 2013 (UTC) :* Hardly marginal. And your reasoning why it should be marginal is environment dependant. The higher level ranger is/higher damage he inflicts, the higher benefit this has. The easier it is to get access to the wisdom potions/items in a module the higher benefit it has. If you want to account non-existant virtual environment of only selfbuffs and only items from vanilla palette then dexterity will be better choice indeed - there is belt/bracers even boots with dexterity while there is only amulet. You could then use this argument in Zen Archery too and add note that given that higher occurence of dexterity items makes it bad choice for anyone else than druid to use this feat. True for a OC campaings probably, not generally though. 21:23, September 2, 2013 (UTC) ::* Here the idiosyncrasies arise. You want the magic level of the world low enough that ranger buffs are meaningful, and high enough that all classes have access to items which replicate the ranger spell book. Instead of insisting on a world that gave ability bonuses equally, you decided to give the ranger owl's wisdom; so why not give the others cat's grace? You described a high magic world, and if you mean that the expected enhancement bonus is +3 or higher, what is the point of the ranger casting blade thirst from his spell book? How easy is it to obtain items casting grease, or aid? Or items with freedom on them? What you originally described, and what you are now claiming as the environment for rangers with zen archery are miles apart. WhiZard (talk) 23:06, September 2, 2013 (UTC) Spells at 4 The 02:26, 2013 November 4 edit by seems a little problematic. Ranger start casting spells by reaching 4 level of same class. First, it is changing (adding to) the official Bioware class description, which I think may be against convention for the NWN Wiki. Second, it seems like the comment is probably unneeded anyway, since the level progression table below makes it clear when rangers start getting spells. And, as a minor point, the sentence is grammatically incorrect and awkward. If there is some subtlety that clarifies the need for the comment, then maybe clean it up and move it to the notes section. Otherwise, I would say revert it. - MrZork (talk) 00:19, November 5, 2013 (UTC) * My first inclination was (and still is) to revert it (for the above reasons), but I decided to hold off in case I was being too rash. --The Krit (talk) 02:41, November 5, 2013 (UTC) * No objections, so I went ahead and reverted it. --The Krit (talk) 02:00, November 26, 2013 (UTC) Note too specific to epic characters ? A note currently reads: : When reaching ranger levels with bonus favored enemy feats at epic character levels (not just epic ranger levels), a feat may be chosen from the epic ranger bonus feat list instead of the usual favored enemy. For example, a spell caster who meets the prerequisites for improved combat casting might take a single ranger level in order, among other reasons, to get that feat as a bonus feat (in lieu of a favored enemy). '' Though it doesn't say so, the note's wording leads some to think that a pre-epic character gaining a ranger bonus feat must take a favored enemy. Of course, that isn't so. But, I have had PW players ask why I would want my (for instance) mage character to take a ranger level pre-epic, not knowing that I could use the bonus feat for greater spell focus (assuming the toon has the appropriate spell focus). I suggest modifying the note so that it doesn't seem as specific to epic characterts. E.g. : ''When reaching ranger levels with bonus feats, any ranger bonus feat may be chosen from the bonus feat list instead of the usual favored enemy. For example, a spell caster who meets the prerequisites for greater spell focus or improved combat casting might take a single ranger level in order, among other reasons, to get that feat as a bonus feat (in lieu of a favored enemy). Any thoughts? - MrZork (talk) 10:00, July 10, 2016 (UTC) * I agree that the original wording implies the the choice requires it to be an epic character. Your wording is clearer IMO. --Iconclast (talk) 05:08, July 11, 2016 (UTC) * How about something more like: The bonus feats obtained every five levels correspond to obtaining favored enemies in pencil-and-paper, but in ''Neverwinter Nights, any bonus feat whose prerequisites are met may be taken.'' Maybe with some acknowledgement that there often is not a choice pre-epic. --The Krit (talk) 03:06, July 12, 2016 (UTC) :* I would worry that mentioning "every five levels" would leave some readers thinking that the other bonus feats either couldn't be used for favored enemies or that they could only be used for favored enemies. Maybe the thing to do is to write the note to de-emphasize any implication that there is something special about favored enemies in terms of bonus feats. For example :: It is often assumed that rangers must use their bonus feats for favored enemies. However, when taking ranger levels with bonus feats, ''any ranger bonus feat may be chosen from the bonus feat list. For example, a spell caster who meets the prerequisites for greater spell focus or improved combat casting might take a single ranger level in order, among other reasons, to get that feat as a bonus feat (in lieu of a favored enemy).'' :: I am not sure if it it would be helpful to end the first sentence with a reference to PnP. E.g. "..., as is the case with the every-fifth-level bonus feats in pencil-and-paper." I don't know. For me, it's been so long since I played PnP, that the note would not be helpful. - MrZork (talk) 08:23, July 12, 2016 (UTC) ::* Is it assumed that rangers must use their bonus feats for favored enemies? I haven't seen anything to indicate that people think the every-three progression has to be used for favored enemies. --The Krit (talk) 00:26, July 14, 2016 (UTC) :::* I should have said "some of their bonus feats". My initial impetus to reexamine the note came when PW player asked me about one of my wizard characters, who takes a ranger level at character level 19 for GSpellF, stealth skills, and a better fortitude save. The player's comment was, basically, "I didn't think you could do that with the favored enemy feat pre-epic." (The phrase "favored enemy feat" was theirs.) So, at least some players think that using some ranger bonus feats (maybe only the level 1 feat) for non-FE purposes is not applicable pre-epic. :::: Anyway, the wording I used above is overly broad. How about the following (which is also shorter)? ::::: When taking ranger levels with bonus feats, ''any ranger bonus feat may be chosen from the bonus feat list. For example, a spell caster who meets the prerequisites for greater spell focus or improved combat casting might take a single ranger level in order, among other reasons, to get that feat as a bonus feat (in lieu of a favored enemy).'' :::: - MrZork (talk) 09:43, July 14, 2016 (UTC)